Europe needs to get real on defence; Britain needs to get real on Europe
13 February 2025
The perils of interviewing serving politicians
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15 January 2024
First of all, welcome to my new, or at least revamped, website. It was starting to look a bit old and tired, perhaps channelling how I tend to feel in January, so I asked for a little refresh. I must say I love the wildernesss pictures on the home page. And I am hoping that for those who come here either for my podcast, or The New European, my two main media activities these days, the new set-up works better for you.
Today, a few words on the podcast interview Rory Stewart and I have just done on The Rest Is Politics LEADING with education secretary Gillian Keegan. Rory has long argued that serving politicians are less interesting than people who can afford to be more reflective, and there is something in that, given the constraints of the whips system and the needs of party discipline and collective responsibility.
That being said, our most listened to interview so far was the one we did with Labour deputy leader Angela Rayner, who perhaps showed that it is perfectly possible to be interesting, honest, authentic, revealing, funny, smart ... and not create headlines that damage your cause. Not far behind was Theresa May, still a serving MP but more open than she was when Prime Minister, if not quite as open as Angela, who has the great habit - from the interviewer's perspective - of listening carefully to a question, and then answering it.
Gillian Keegan came out somewhere in the middle, very frank and open when it came to her history, but closely attached to the party lines and the rebuttal points and the "we're good, Labour are bad" messaging at the heart of the Tories' strategy in election year.
The immediate feedback has been mixed. Some praise for her for coming on (it has been a long time in the making, and arose from when she and I appeared together last year on a charity platform, and she criticised me for not having Tories on ... I pointed out there were not that many ministers interesting enough, whereas John Major and Michael Heseltine really were); some support for her standing up to my efforts to suggest there was a huge gap between rhetoric on education and the reality in many schools; many messages from heads and teachers suggesting they heard it in splenetic fury, feeling she was dismissively complacent of the challenges they face; some support but also criticism for me raising the role of her husband, formerly with Fujitsu, in the Post Office scandal; some criticism that I was too hard, more that I was too soft, and some of our listeners thinking that Rory didn't ask sufficiently tough questions of her.
But overall, I think it was good to have her on, and while I disagree with a lot of what she said on policy, and genuinely believe the government talks a good game better than it delivers on education, she has a good manner, and - the occasional F-word outburst notwithstanding - is generally one of the Tories' better communicators.
So the question is ... which other members of the Cabinet should we try to get onto the podcast? I have been trying for David Cameron for some time; Michael Gove likewise. Gove has indicated he is keen, but we never quite manage to pin him down for a date. My sense is that Cameron is less keen, and probably even unkeener since returning to government. I imagine he would be even more less keen if he had read Rory's analysis of him in his (still top of the charts) book, Politics on the Edge.
But are there any others people think we should be aiming for? Who do people find interesting?
Finally, talking of books, the paperback of But What Can I Do? has arrived and, as with the hardback, a nice man called Nigel at Coles' Books in Bicester is on hand to organise signed copies and dedications for those who want them. Here is the link.
All the best.
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It would be really interesting to hear Rory and Alex Chalk (and you, of course) talk about the justice system. While they may end up agreeing agreeably on most issues, it could be fascinating
I have already emailed in. I was extremely disappointed with the episode with Gillian Keegan. Yes it was a coup to secure a member of the Cabinet, but she was dangerously deluded. No acknowledgement of the progress in Education made with the last Labour Government. I nearly switched off; I was frustrated and angry.
Agree Sheila. I’ve worked in SEN for 20+ years. Education isn’t about climbing a table of international results in reading. There was no nuance. The new schools transformed areas. Dare I mention Sure Start? She was terrible.
I would love you to interview someone from the ‘Centre Right of the old Tory party – David Gaulke or Dominic Grieve perhaps. Intent would be to explore how this element of the political spectrum (which is essentially completely unrepresented in the political parties at the moment) can plot a path back to influence and even power.
Yes, please, to Dominic Grieve – his eloquence and intelligence has been missed since Boris Johnson cleansed his party of most of his decent colleagues!
President Michael D. Higgins, please Alastair.
I have to say, as someone who has recently returned to the classroom after ten years working for a global NGO education programme, that Gillian Keegan (while brave to come on) was just glib. No real comprehension of the issues faced in schools at the moment, and equally dismissive of the DFE – every answer was “I do this and I do that”. Things at school are harder now than at any time since I qualified in ’91, and her responses just didn’t recognise the struggle that many (Heads, Teachers, TAs, Parents, and Students) are going through.
Perhaps there are things schools themselves could be doing to make things better. For example more discipline – girls wearing heavy makeup jewellery and mini skirts to school, kids being allowed out of school at lunch time to buy energy drinks which cause bad behaviour after lunch, and mobile phones should be banned in school as they are a massive distraction. The gov is not the only one responsible for making schools better; if the teachers enforced better discipline things would certainly improve.
I really liked the interview, predominantly because i felt you pinned her down when it needed to happen. I really hated her responses on education. I’ve been a teacher for 5 years and the workload is completely unmanageable (quit last year- love teaching but nearly impossible to focus on solely that), her “i don’t think it’s that bad” when you challenged her on teacher’s becoming social workers and replacement parents was appalling. She clearly has no understanding of teachers and their myriad challenges…
I was debating whether to even listen to this as I find her objectionable but maybe I’ll give it a try.
WRT future guests: if either of you can get any semblance of truth out of the Govster at all I’ll be very impressed but I would listen to it with interest. As for Cameron, yes, but only if Rory agrees to seriously challenge him about, a) his decision to call a referendum at all in 2016 and, b) his recent outrageous statement that he now thinks Brexit was a good idea!
Please do not give Gove any further publicity. He is deluded, in much the same vein as Dominic Cummings:‘I’m too bright and right-field to be considered by the brightest universities in the country’. Utter nonsense. These people are bonkers egoists who need to be ignored because their arguments can be straightforwardly skewered by a decent critical challenge. They do so much damage once they throw themselves into the spotlight.
I’ve just finished listening. I devour everything TRIP pushes outon the day it’s released but this was a disappointing listen. She was predictably party political, Rory seemed rather too careful and cautious in his questions (must be hard interviewing a friend in that role) and Alastair, rarely heard you seem less up for a tussle with someone on the Tory inside. Overall a bit of a damp squib… Perhaps getting Fiona to guest interview may have created a better depth of discussion? Love you guys but this one wasn’t memorable.
Why on earth would you interview a minister in this current administration? They are only concerned with themselves and the positioning of their party. It’s their only agenda, always has been. Most are completely dishonest especially Michael Gove.
Ultimately they protect their own interests..
Loved Angela Rayner interview
Guy Verhofstadt
Fiona Hill
I would love to see you interview Simon Schama. He is wonderful to listen to, erudite and as a leading historian a wealth of knowledge and views about pretty much everything!
I enjoyed it but found her education answers complacent / wishful thinking. One of her most interesting comments was to say that she could only deal with averages. Anybody that has managed a process knows that averages are meaningless unless you first have control of factors causing variation around the average. It probably explains the gulf between her perspective and the reality on the ground in your headmaster example.
Soooo disappointed. For months I’ve tweeted you @campbellclaret directly, urging you to challenge Stewart on his repeated statements of favoritism and friendship toward his pal Keegan, when her every slither and twist under interview pressure only adds to the impression she’s under-qualified, privileged and complacent, and yes, greedily refurbishing her glam office when the schools are literally close to physical collapse.
And now, to platform her as a ‘leader?’ in the very weeks when her husand’s dubious responsibilities linked to the post office scandal become clearer?
See Wikipedia: ‘Michael Keegan is currently employed as a crown representative to the Cabinet Office, managing cross-government relationships with BAE Systems as a strategic supplier to the Government,[41] He is a non-executive director of the technology company Centerprise,[42][non-primary source needed] having HERE YOU ARE…previously been Head of Fujitsu UK and Ireland during the latter part of its involvement with the Post Office scandal.[43]
Usually, I’m a big fan of your main podcast and always impressed with your determination to keep European news (and beyond) in listeners’ ears. Best regards,
I had to stop listening after her responses on education, when she said “well I don’t know what schools you’re visiting, but I certainly don’t hear that” about how headteachers are demoralised etc etc…I’m a school governor of a rural primary school and deal regularly with a head teacher who could be the physical embodiment of optimism, and a can-do attitude, and it’s been tough watching some of that optimism drain away over the last couple of years. We try to offer support but the support she really needs should be coming from the DfE. Every day she goes to work she has to inspire teachers and TAs to do more and more and with fewer and fewer resources and deal first hand with the issues that come from children growing up in families in need with little support from the state. To have heard Gillian Keegan’s glib response was a kick in the teeth for me, I certainly won’t be recommending to our poor beleaguered head that she give it a listen.
Every time a government minister responds to an issue like this, their impulse is to deny the problem and say how well they’re doing and that it’s much better than under the other lot. Well, as a school governor, let me tell you that it hurts teachers to be teaching under such a restrictive curriculum and all that while they are de facto social workers. They have to deal daily with the consequences of a dysfunctional state which has let down some of its most vulnerable citizens – children from poorer homes. This means sometimes dealing with violence and abuse from young children and certainly not receiving positive feedback from parents, all while the sword of Damocles of an Ofsted inspection hangs over them, where they might be judged for stuff that’s not their fault – poor behaviour, poor attendance, poor attainment…I’d love for Gillian Keegan to spend a week in a school, not an hour of showboating, where she spends time in classrooms, carries out playground duty, serves school dinners and has a look at the safeguarding requirements incumbent on each of the staff. She could have a chat to various members of staff, parents, children themselves and governors and then maybe she could be questioned on “what she sees” when she visits a school.
Well said@
Surprised Gillian wasn’t challenged on her claim of the UK getting 4th in the PISA tests. I googled it and it’s not there. She then said how Scotland and wales were in the twenties/ thirties ratings. Bizarre
I didn’t think it worked. It doesn’t fit with my expectations of what Leading stands for. Given her current position Gillian could not give the depth of thought/consideration of topics you normally get.
Alastair clearly pulling his punches. I could feel him backing off at times and Rory was doing his best to keep things moving and civil.
The backstory was interesting but as soon as we got onto the politics, it was just the usual boxing match.
I’d get her back on once she’s left office and then compare and contrast with this.
And I would not get anyone on from a current government regardless of party. Too defensive.
As a retired primary teacher, I question the obsession with phonics of Gillian Keegan and this UK Gov. Yes, being able to decode text is a key skill, but it is also important that children understand and enjoy the books they read. Schools are now saddled with reading books of the ‘Lid is on the tin’ and ‘The dog plays on the plank’ variety (titles made up btw). Which child is enthralled by phonics driven texts? I googled the PISA result and found the document below. As far as I can tell, it does not support Gillian’s claim about Englands being 4th in reading:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/656dc3321104cf0013fa742f/PISA_2022_England_National_Report.pdf
More challenge needed!
Hi Alastair,
Do you think her reaction and general approach, was a reaction to how you tee’d up the questions?
John, Dublin
Enjoyable interview overall, Alastair, but the reliance on education stats irked. Suppose the bottom schools got a bit worse and the top schools improved substantially, the average would go up
Also, she slithered away from answering how a balance can be struck between capital and labour if unions don’t represent workers
Would recommend you interview Jonathan Haidt. He wrote a book on why good people find it difficult to disagree agreeably
The Righteous Mind: Why Good People are Divided by Politics and Religion https://amzn.eu/d/1d5M2cU
Posting this on behalf of my Brother in law Mark Ward. Headmaster and governor of a primary School in Hampshire. Mark posted this privately to his family but with his consent he agreed to let me share. In response to the recent leading podcast with Gillian Keegan.
“I had to stop listening after her responses on education, when she said “well I don’t know what schools you’re visiting, but I certainly don’t hear that” about how headteachers are demoralised etc etc…I’m a school governor of a rural primary school and deal regularly with a head teacher who could be the physical embodiment of optimism, and a can-do attitude, and it’s been tough watching some of that optimism drain away over the last couple of years. We try to offer support but the support she really needs should be coming from the DFE. Every day she goes to work she has to inspire teachers and TAs to do more and more and with fewer and fewer resources and deal first hand with the issues that come from children growing up in families in need with little support from the state. To have heard Gillian Keegan’s glib response was a kick in the teeth for me, I certainly won’t be recommending to our poor beleaguered head that she give it a listen.
Every time a government minister responds to an issue like this, their impulse is to deny the problem and say how well they’re doing and that it’s much better than under the other lot. Well, as a school governor, let me tell you that it hurts teachers to be teaching under such a restrictive curriculum and all that while they are de facto social workers. They have to deal daily with the consequences of a dysfunctional state which has let down some of its most vulnerable citizens – children from poorer homes. This means sometimes dealing with violence and abuse from young children and certainly not receiving positive feedback from parents, all while the sword of Damocles of an Ofsted inspection hangs over them, where they might be judged for stuff that’s not their fault – poor behaviour, poor attendance, poor attainment…I’d love for Gillian Keegan to spend a week in a school, not an hour of showboating, where she spends time in classrooms, carries out playground duty, serves school dinners and has a look at the safeguarding requirements incumbent on each of the staff. She could have a chat to various members of staff, parents, children themselves and governors and then maybe she could be questioned on “what she sees” when she visits a school.
My son and daughter in law have recently been visiting local secondary schools in order to make a choice of senior school for their ten year old son.
They have visited Woolmer Hill School in Haslemere, Bohunt School in Liphook and Rother College in Midhurst.
The last Ofsted reports for Bohunt and Rother College were completed eleven years ago in 2013.
How can Gillian Keegan accurately claim the a certain percentage of schools are now excellent when the Ofted inspections of some schools are over a decade old? It seems like she/Ofsted don’t want to re inspect previously “excellent “ schools because there is an election looming and due to Tory cuts, they may not be excellent any more.
Hi, please don’t post or remove my previous comment starting “Posting this on behalf of my Brother in law Mark Ward. ” I see that someone else ‘liz’ has already made it and i wonder if my brother in law posted someone else’s or a colleagues comment and i misunderstood
I made the comment but am really pleased it resonated with a head teacher. As a governor, my role is to challenge and support” but in the current climate it’s mainly to support the head and the staff and try and get the best for children at the same time. Teachers are incredible, I’ve been blown away by their commitment to children and resilience over the last few years and Gillian Keegan’s tone deaf comments yesterday made me blow a fuse.
It would be great to interview a head teacher about how they’re leading in the current climate.
Some exceptional heads out there to select from!
I agree. Why not Andrew O’Neil? He obviously knows how to lead a school
I agree. Why not Andrew O’Neil? He obviously knows how to lead a school
Penny Mordaunt sounds like the next LOTO. She’s also got a hinterland, and is very pro-Portsmouth, which can lead to some football chat.
This episode definitely feels like it falls into the “experiment that didn’t quite work” category. Gillian Keegan failed to engage fully with the topics under discussion by constantly deflecting any attempt to analyze the problems facing education through repetition of her or her government’s achievements. While no-one should grudge her mentioning these once, this tactic is more appropriate for programmes like Newsnight, and the result was a missed opportunity to improve our understanding of issues in education and their possible solutions.
I have to also mention that my fellow dog walkers were shocked by my expletives this lunchtime at the point where Keegan asserts that the growing disparity between average executive and worker salaries is a fair reflection of the former’s contribution to their organization’s growth. In my limited experience, for every Jobs-type visionary, there are 10s or 100s of mediocrities who’s talent is self-promotion and claiming the credit and reward for their employees’ hard work and innovation.
Maybe a future episode could explore this attitude and whether it has a wider corrosive effect in the level of fairness that people feel exists in society and their willingness to play a part in maintaining the health of that society.
I too would truly welcome a podcast discussion on the huge gulf between the income of those seen to be on the lowest rungs of the workplace ladder and those at the top… I feel the UK has returned to something positively Victorian – where the very wealthy are insulated from the genuine suffering of unfairly poor people, and thus the problem is very unlikely to be addressed and ‘sorted’ … perhaps TRIP could get the discussion moving?! That said, I’m not sure who I’d nominate to be interviewed on the subject – Will Hutton perhaps?
[…] the podcast interview with Gillian Keegan that I wrote about earlier this week, I said to her that I felt the government of which she was a […]
I have not listened to her because she really winds me up. I worked in a school in a support role for two years and found the experience deeply depressing. The teachers were fantastic but the discipline issues in the classroom were terrible. And I’ve no idea what the answer is. It doesn’t seem she even sees any problem, which is just weird.
Suggestions for interviewees? Sir John Hayes because when I was at university with him he was reasonable so I’d like to hear more about his political journey to where he is now. He represents that side of the right who have come to prominence. And very different, Dame Louise Casey. Her recent series in Radio 4 was fab and she is a true Leader of thought and action.
For once “agreeing disagreeably” failed miserably. Sadly Gillian Keegan ran roughshod over Alistair, who was more more tribal kitten than tribal rotweiller on this occasssion. Rory, on the few occassions that he contributed to the conversation seemed acutely embarresed that she was allowed a platform to deliver the now hollow Tory party line. That was the worst episode of Leading by a country mile, an experiment that totally failed and one I hope will never be repeated,
I agree with you Paul. I love Rest is Politics and Leading.This was my worst experience as a listener. I was so disappointed and angry that I very nearly switched off. She was dangerously deluded and the debate wasn’t there. I also felt an awkwardness around Rory’s stance, but I guess if someone you purport to admire comes on and spouts untruths….what do you do?
I gave up half way through. Fascinating personal story, no doubt, but just a party hack when attention turned to government policy and practice, especially on education. Nothing learnt.
Rory seems to be succumbing to siren song of party loyalty. He should be able to resist that. Lash him to the mast, Alastair.
The Angela Rayner interview was excellent. As were the John Major and Theresa May ones. As for serving politicians, I fear anyone in the government, ministers etc, will stick too strictly to party lines and messages, so I’m not too sure about them being on at all. I can watch and listen to them on the drab news programmes being broadcast today. Keep up the good work!