Europe needs to get real on defence; Britain needs to get real on Europe
13 February 2025
Post
14 June 2011
4 minute(s) read
Recent Posts
A Deal With the Devil? Murdoch and New Labour (Part 2)
What was the nature of Rupert Murdoch's relationship with Margaret Thatcher? What led to News Corp's near-collapse in the late 1980s, and how did the company recover? Why and how did Tony Bla... Continue17 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
459. Question Time: Reform’s Potential Upside, Why Bad News Sells & Reasons To Stay Hopeful
Who’s offering hope in politics today? Where are the real environmental success stories? And what one law would Rory and Alastair make a reality? Join Rory and Alastair as they answer all ... Continue16 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
Alastair Campbell’s diary: Why Trump should never be given the Nobel peace prize
Peace is not just about bombs falling silent, but the humanity that goes into maintaining it... Continue15 October 2025
458. Can Trump’s Peace Deal Actually Work?
Has Trump really brought a “new dawn” to the Middle East? How can one of the most broken places on earth begin to be rebuilt? And is Argentina mourning the death of a libertarian dream? ... Continue14 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
157. Ukraine, Diplomacy, and the Future of Europe (Dmytro Kuleba)
What is the current position of Ukraine in the Ukraine-Russia war? How delicate is diplomacy with Europe and with the US for the Ukrainian government? What are the differences between working... Continue13 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
The Rise of Rupert Murdoch: Making of a Mogul (Part 1)
Why is Rupert Murdoch considered such an influential figure? What was his childhood and family like growing up in Australia? How did he establish his groundbreaking media presence in the UK? ... Continue10 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
457. Is Trump Planning Regime Change?
Why is Trump attacking Venezuelan ships? Are the Greens turning protest into real political power? And, will France create a sixth Republic? The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy.... Continue9 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
456. Antisemitism, How the Tories Lost Britain, and Gaza
Why is antisemitism on the rise in the UK? Can Trump’s Gaza plan ever provide a just and lasting peace? Why does Rory think the Conservative Party is on a doomed path? Join Rory and Alasta... Continue8 October 2025
Posted by Alastair Campbell
Hate to say this but your right, there was an article on it in the papers, it had it all, Titanic, Edwardian Class system, families at War, might just buy the book. I guess you can be right once and while, long time in between!
It is interesting how people in our lives caan weave in and out. The minister who married me and my wife moved to Australia shortly after our wedding. we met him last year – 23 yrs after our wedding – on holiday in New Zealand
Most of the younger generation will know the Titanic story from the love story of Kate Winslet and Leonardo Di Caprio. That is the power of cinema. But it is a distorting power. As Mr Ward appears to be saying – I shall definitely read his book – the class system operated at every level of his tragedy, to a shaming degree. And I cannot help thinking that too much of the class structure, particularly with Cameron now in power and the Royals having a revival, prevails
I am impressed how much you seem to be able to do with your time, and still read books. I read about three books a year, on holiday, and wish I read more. I will try to get this one because I am something of a Titanic student from my days as a history student in Liverpool
Ah yes, Forum booklet of titilation. Remember it well for my teenage years. It used to pop up in my dad’s bedroom side cabinet. I am sure there are several copies in the attic left as we speak.
Wonderful, isn’t it ? A ship sinks 100 years ago and one of us manages to turn even that into a swipe at Cameron !
‘And I cannot help thinking that too much of the class structure,
particularly with Cameron now in power and the Royals having a revival,
prevaiIs.’
I assume you’re referring to the above quotation? You miss the point. Todd is talking about the class structure or system and comparing the situation in 1911 with that of 2011. With Cameron’s toffocracy in government and a Royalist revival, it seems that not much has changed in a hundred years. Anyway, Cameron could do with a few swipes – he hasn’t had many in the last few years.
As much as it pains me to agree with you,it sounds like a rather interesting book.As a history buff I think it will be on my list when I get my next group of books.
Funny don’t you think that Tony Blair, the quiet multi-millionaire, or Shaun Woodword are never referred to as toffs…..
Neither Woodward nor Blair are scions of the British aristocracy. Cameron and Clegg have connections with Royalty. There is a big difference between middle class meritocrats and upper class twits, as Monty Python expressed so well a few decades back. What ought to be a matter of great public concern is the fact that there are families like the Manners, the Grosvenors and the Fitzalan-Howards who still dominate land ownership in the UK nearly a thousand years after their ancestors supposedly held Duke William’s lance at Hastings during the last successful invasion of these islands by foreign adventurers. I think you, Yonks, will be greatly concerned by that.
Why? Why do you think I’ll be greatly concerned when I’d rather live in the here and now than the past.
You might be correct, they might be twits but, so what? The fact that their families have been around for as long as yours and mine means diddly squat…yours is the politics of envy Dave.
Yonks you may not be concerned. But, I don’t think you’ve entirely grasped the whole picture. It has nothing to do with the “politics of envy” as you call it.
Living in the here and now, as you say is completely dominated by past events. History is not a separate and irrelevant part of “today” History has ensured that there always has been a social and financial divide and always will be.
Yonks you may not be concerned. But, I don’t think you’ve entirely grasped the whole picture. It has nothing to do with the “politics of envy” as you call it.
Living in the here and now, as you say is completely dominated by past events. History is not a separate and irrelevant part of “today” History has ensured that there always has been a social and financial divide and always will be.
Absolute unadulterated rubbish! On the admittedly rare occasions when I’ve met members of the British upper class I’ve been very unimpressed rather than envious – except by a drop-out member of the Guinness family I met once who was very interested in the radical psychotherapist, Carl Rogers. He was doing a bit of a George Orwell and working on the assembly line in Ford’s, Dagenham, and good for him in every sense. I have no aspiration to live in any of the many great houses I’ve visited and have some difficulty in understanding why anyone else does. After all, surely this world is just a passing through place and no-one takes a single brick or fraction of an acre over to ‘the other side’. Mind you I’m glad to hear you live in the here and now because you’ll therefore appreciate that it’s impossible to understand the here and now without some attempt to understand where here and now came from.
Absolute unadulterated rubbish! On the admittedly rare occasions when I’ve met members of the British upper class I’ve been very unimpressed rather than envious – except by a drop-out member of the Guinness family I met once who was very interested in the radical psychotherapist, Carl Rogers. He was doing a bit of a George Orwell and working on the assembly line in Ford’s, Dagenham, and good for him in every sense. I have no aspiration to live in any of the many great houses I’ve visited and have some difficulty in understanding why anyone else does. After all, surely this world is just a passing through place and no-one takes a single brick or fraction of an acre over to ‘the other side’. Mind you I’m glad to hear you live in the here and now because you’ll therefore appreciate that it’s impossible to understand the here and now without some attempt to understand where here and now came from.
Gillie, I well understand ‘our’ history and how it has shaped all of us but you should note Dave’s view about toffocracy and a royalist revival. He makes it sound like the Queen is going to come riding over the hill demanding her tithes be paid by us serfs!
Dave, I’m very pleased for you in your contact with the British upper class but really, so what? I’m sure all of your encounters thought equally of you.
Probably the only thing we will agree on is that we will most certainly not be taking anything with us….
Much as the Queen loves horses she doesn’t need to come riding over any hill demanding anything – it’s all built into the law of the land and the tax system.
Hi Yonks, I had to smile at your last sentence regarding the Queen riding over the hills demanding payment from the serfs, what a mental picture that conjures up! I couldn’t resist giving you a “like” for that alone.
The big problem is though, that this image is not really that far from the truth. There was a time when I thought in a similar way to you about the way our lives are “governed” but I know different now. I don’t think you will agree with my final paragraph because some of your other previous comments have been rather anti-unions. All I ask is that you do not dismiss it on sight, maybe do a little investigation of your own and don’t rely on the mainstream media for acurate information. They just broadcast and write what they are allowed to.
If it wasn’t for strong unions such as the FBU and other well known unions
the ordinary decent working people would indeed be still be living in serfdom.
A return to serfdom is exactly what many of the elite want to happen. The unions will fight to the bitter end to ensure this does not happen and I for one support them 100% They are all that stands between us and them!
If this Government thinks that the ordinary hard working people are going to sacrifice their hard-earned pensions to pick-up the bill incured by avaricious unprincipled bankers, they have got another think coming!
Yonks, if you keep saying ‘so what?’ it rather negates what you’ve said before it. How can you be ‘very pleased’ for me with my contact with the British upper class if it’s such an irrelevant and unimportant experience? Are you always very pleased that people should have such useless experiences or does your left hand not know what your right hand is doing?
Hi Dave, I posted a comment in reply to Yonks a couple of hours ago, saying pretty much the same as you just have only with more words, as usual for me! and then some. Your succinct reply says it all.
Attention MODERATOR/S The post I refer to in the above paragraph is the 3rd post of mine to go “missing” in the past 10 days or so. It’s not as if I ever say anything controversial, so why am I being censored? I suppose it could be down to a technical clitch. Anyone else had any problems perchance?
Gillie, Thanks for the ‘like’, I think it’s only the second or third time I’ve received one on here….I understand where you’re coming from with regard to the unions and you’re partially correct in believing I wouldn’t agree. I worked in a heavily unionised industry for a very long time and am sorry to say, in my opinion, they brought about more job losses than the management.
I think you’ll find that the present government wants the workforce to contribute ‘fairly’, not unlike the previous government which also managed to screw up private pension funds in one fell swoop by the less than wonderful Brown.
Dave,
I think you need to, as the police would say, ‘move on sir’. You’re now arguing semantics…
Yonks, I think you make a fair point there about some unions!
I believe it’s only right to take a close look at the leadership of all unions,
to see exactly where they are coming from. e.g. are they simply just “commie bastards” and not really working in the interests of the membership.
Why does life have to be so complicated, I wonder.
Reading it now on your recommendation! Can’t put it down!